Episode 124: Understanding Spirits With Rob McCaughey of the Wine & Spirits Education Trust

Distilled spirits form the foundation of our favorite cocktails. But beyond simple differences like
bourbon vs. scotch or gin vs. vodka, many bartenders and drinkers may only have a cursory
knowledge of the deeper details. The Wine & Spirits Education Trust (WSET) is a global
educational organization that aims to make such deeper, detailed knowledge of spirits
accessible to professionals and consumers. For this episode, we explore WSET’s spirits
education programs with Rob McCaughey, head of business development for spirits for
WSET Americas.

Radio Imbibe is the audio home of Imbibe magazine. In each episode, we dive into liquid culture, exploring the people, places, and flavors of the drinkscape through conversations about cocktails, coffee, beer, spirits, and wine. Keep up with us on Instagram, Threads, and Facebook. And if you’re not already a subscriber, we’d love to have you join us—click here to subscribe. 

Read the Transcript

Paul Clarke 

Hey everybody, welcome back to Radio Imbibe from Imbibe magazine. I’m Paul Clarke, Imbibe’s editor-in-chief. 

And for almost 20 years now we’ve tried to bring readers of Imbibe many different things in the pages of the magazine. We map out trends and directions in the beer world, and talk about different wine varietals and wine producing regions. We share details in great coffee places and the types of tea you should be checking out. And of course we bring you cocktails, lots and lots of cocktails and the bars and the bartenders behind those drinks. 

Over the years we’ve also tried to take you, our readers, our audience a little deeper into the spirits world. And in doing so we’re aiming at a couple of things. First, to share the joy that can be found in a great glass of tequila, or in particular gins that are fantastic in Martinis, or about the technicolor range of flavor options that can be found when exploring rum. The second reason we like to regularly visit spirits is because distilled spirits are inherently fascinating. They’re combinations of agriculture and engineering all brought together in different ways around the globe, and all bearing some imprint of the places where they’re made, the people who make them, and the cultures that they’re made for.

Such a complex world deserves dedicated attention and an avenue for both drinks professionals and ardent drinks enthusiasts to learn more about the details behind each spirit’s make-up and manner of production. With this kind of education, we can better understand things. Like, how the fields of corn you see out your car windows as you’re driving from the Midwest can be transformed into that amber glass of bourbon you sip in the evening. And we can also better understand the range of options that distillers and blenders have at every step of the process to make their spirit interesting and engaging and worthy of exploration. 

Until relatively recently a dedicated educational track for learning about distilled spirits didn’t really exist outside of trade schools for those aiming to make the production of spirits their profession. This has started to shift in more recent years, though, thanks to dedicated spirits education programs put together by the Wine and Spirits Education Trust or WSET. WSET is a London-based educational body that operates around the world. Wine professionals have long been familiar with WSET’s wine programs and diploma offering. And a similar track for spirits is building up steam worldwide, including here in the U.S. 

In the interest of full disclosure, I should mention that I went through WSET’s spirits program several years ago as part of my personal pandemic project. Since then I’ve become a certified educator for the program, aiming to share a little bit of the experience I’ve gathered in 20 years of writing about spirits while working within WSET’s curriculum.

WSET recently revamped this top-level Level 3 program for spirits education aiming to make it more accessible and engaging for students around the world. And for this episode, we’ve invited Rob McCaughey, the head of business development for spirits for WSET Americas, to bring us up to speed on what exactly is the Wine and Spirits Education Trust, the need and the goal for WSET’s spirits programs, and the things curious listeners and potential students might need to know to get started on their own journeys of spirits education. 

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Paul Clarke

Rob, welcome to Radio Imbibe. 

Rob McCaughey 

It’s lovely to be here. Thanks for having me.

Paul Clarke

Absolutely. And you know, typically for our podcast interviews, we are talking to bartenders and distillers and importers and a whole range of people who play different roles in the drinks world. And in many cases of the spirits industry were the hospitality industry. We wanted to have you on the podcast. Because while you’ve been a bartender in the past, and you’ve worked in a range of roles over the years, for a number of years now, you’ve been engaged in a very different part of the drinks world. And that is through the Wine and Spirits Education Trust or WSET.

Recently, WSET announced some significant changes to its spirits education programs, and we’ll get to those details shortly. But to start at the top and to introduce people to you and to WSET, what is it that the organization does as an educational body? And why is this particularly needed in the drink sector, especially as we’re looking at spirits? 

Rob McCaughey 

So, yeah, I think WSET as an organization is in one way or another … I’ve been involved from the student through to working for the organization for the best part of 30 years now. It is a charitable trust. We started back in London in 1969, so over 55 years ago. And it was primarily a mechanism for the trade to upskill itself. We were founded by trade bodies within the United Kingdom so that people coming into the industry could have a broad understanding of beverage alcohol. And back then there was one course that covered everything from cider to beer, wine, spirits. I think there were cigars in there as well. It was really all-encompassing. And for a long time, that was all as necessary.

And over the years, more and more organizations around the world started coming to us saying they wanted to introduce it into their market. I think our first international partner was in Toronto back in 1977. And we realized that we had something that was really kind of global, and for more than just trade. We had a lot of enthusiasts wanting to just have a confidence and more ability to be able to communicate effectively and navigate beverage alcohol when we’re now in the world. And over the years we’ve kind of morphed into this global leader in the space, offering our courses in, I think last count was 65-plus countries, 15 languages, about 150,000 students a year.

And we have separate streams now for each product category. So we have a stream for spirits, wine, sake, and most recently beer. We kind of have developmentally pathways through those qualifications. We have Levels 1 and upwards, starting with quite foundational courses that can be done in as little as a day, to more advanced courses that require 85, 90 hours of study to be successful. The big takeaway for us, I think, is we’re more than just teaching people facts. We’re helping people acquire skills, obviously, as well as knowledge. And it’s the combination of those two things that I think make our qualifications so sought after around the world. 

Paul Clarke

Right, right. And you know, a lot of bar and restaurant workers may have learned about the spirits they serve on the job, or from producers or distributors coming through, or through self-study, from just looking at books and available resources. That’s been changing in recent years. Many beverage professionals have taken that word ‘professional’ a little bit more to heart. What role does or can WSET play in this changing landscape? And what aspects make it spirits education programs distinctive and of particular interest to professionals as well as to curious consumers? 

Rob McCaughey

Yeah, I think it’s interesting. And there’s definitely, I mean, I’ve been around a little while now. I remember my career started probably in the early, mid-’90s. And it was a very different landscape then. I think wine has always had this kind of almost cultural significance. It’s seen as more agricultural, less manipulation. And it’s a lot of smaller producers who individually don’t necessarily have a budget to go out there and do a lot of education.

So wine certifications have almost always been more accepted as a mechanism by which to kind of learn about the category. Whereas spirits until really 20, 25 years ago, it was a few big players. It was seen as more industrial. There was a relatively few brands on most back bars. Most people working in bars, it was a side hustle or something they were doing, waiting for something else to happen. So it was just viewed differently. And brand education honestly was kind of sufficient most of the time. Obviously, there’s a little bias that creeps in sometimes. But it gave you enough to be able to do what you needed to do.

I don’t think that’s the case anymore. There’s for a variety of reasons. The world is much smaller. People have better access to information and almost need better skills to be able to filter out some of the noise more effectively. There is more access to more global, artisanal, regional spirits than ever before. I look at a back bar now, and I’m intimidated. I’m so impressed by what bartenders today can do. It was so much simpler in my day to be able to navigate. But now you have to be an expert on so many different things. And that’s before you start thinking just about the hospitality side of bartending.

And I think with all of those things in mind, having the ability to take a brand neutral, globally respected qualification that focuses on production steps and decisions that can be made from filled to final product really allows folks to be able to come at this industry in a way that they couldn’t before in terms of their own knowledge, their ability to innovate, their understanding of the product cycle, the empowerment in terms of decision making, recognizing consumer trends. I think all of these things now are so much more important. And the value of our qualifications can’t be overstated in terms of helping with some of those things. 

Paul Clarke 

Right. And I want to circle back on something you mentioned a moment ago, and that is the global reach of WSET, how this is truly an international kind of focus that you have where you have students worldwide. And they’re all following the same curriculum. When you think about it from this kind of wide-frame perspective, how does WSET aim to bring these students into the conversation about spirits in a way that is understandable to everyone so everybody can kind of speak the same language about spirits, even though they come from very different cultures? 

Rob McCaughey 

It’s a tricky thing, right, to be able to bridge some of those cultural differences. And it’s something we’re acutely aware of. As an organization that was primarily British and certainly Anglo-Eurocentric for many, many years, I think something that we try to do as we’ve developed our spirits qualification, and now we’re doing on our wine side as well, is to involve more stakeholders when we’re developing our lexicons, when we’re reviewing our materials. Really trying to make sure that we take into account some of that local nuance.

And some of that comes into our educator training program as well, which is something that I’m really proud of myself. As we have a course that we offer to people who want to be educators to not only give them some insight into WSET’s pedagogy and philosophy, but also to empower them to lean into their own inherent skills and recognize that different audiences, different students have different motivations and to be able to adjust the teaching strategy to recognize that while still adhering to our very strict lesson plans, learning outcomes and assessment criteria to ensure that the student is fully prepared for that exam. 

Paul Clarke 

And you had mentioned a moment ago how WSET focuses on things like the techniques of production and the actual kind of physical aspects of producing spirits and what makes them different, what makes them significant. We should note that this isn’t just reading. This isn’t just online learning. This is also tasting. Tasting is a big part of the WSET protocol. And one of the things that is very significant about it, I wanted to focus on it for a moment, is this systematic approach to tasting that WSET has.

Several years ago when I first enrolled in a Level 2 spirits class, in the back of my mind, I was thinking, I’ve been doing this for many years. I know how to taste. I don’t need to learn how to taste, I don’t need to be taught a different way to do what I’ve already been doing. But I soon figured out that there was a need to kind of press reset on that opinion and to follow this systematic approach. How is this tasting approach significant to the WSET model? And how can it be useful for students around the world? 

Rob McCaughey

For me it’s fundamental. And even though our lower qualifications, our Level 1 and Level 2 qualifications at WSET, don’t have tasting exams, tasting is a fundamental piece of the learning experience to help reinforce theory and to build understanding. And tasting is an inherently tricky proposition, right? Biases constantly inform our opinions. We tend to use language in a very figurative and emotive way when we’re talking naturally with our friends and colleagues and customers. So what we strive to do is remove as much of that subjectivity as possible by focusing on key facets of a spirit for which we can ask simple probing questions. We also try and use a relatively simple global language, which allows us to communicate clearly, confidently and accurately.

Beyond this, just as importantly, as I said before, we’re using this to reinforce theoretical knowledge. If you understand the choices made during production and how they impact style and quality, you’re better able to articulate what’s in the glass and this linkage leads to greater comprehension. So our systematic approach to tasting or SAT for me is really kind of a gold standard in the industry for how tasting can be approached. And I’ve seen it used in a variety of ways, from sensory in a production environment to marketing, communication, brand ambassadors. And the feedback we get generally is it’s such a valuable tool because we try and strip away a lot of the noise and just focus on fundamentals to be able to communicate clearly and succinctly. 

Paul Clarke 

We’ve mentioned Level 1, Level 2, Level 3. Walk us through the WSET structure just a little bit. Just kind of explain what each of these does and how one progresses to the next. 

Rob McCaughey 

So there’s a couple of ways to think about this. If you think about things as three levels, the what, the how, and the why. Okay? So a Level 1 course is really this exploration. It’s a basic factual knowledge exploration of the main types and styles of spirits in the world that are kind of globally recognized. So your gins, your vodkas, your rums, your whiskies.

In terms of the tasting side of things, we’ll often look at kind of eight to 10 spirits to help reinforce that theory and give people a sense of some of those key spirits categories in the world. We look a little bit at how they’re made and it’s kind of a six-hour program. This is whether you’re doing this as kind of a one-day course, if you’re doing this online at your own pace over several weeks. And it finishes with a 30-question multiple-choice test. 21 out of 30 is a pass mark. So it’s a 70% pass mark.

It’s a really great course for people who just want to have some foundational, fundamental knowledge with which to have a little bit more confidence as they navigate this space. So Level 1 students could be people new to the industry, enthusiasts who are just exploring spirits for the first time. We even get a lot of people who are kind of executives who are maybe moving into the spirits industry or need to be able to communicate in a business environment about certain products. And our Level 1 course is what they need to kind of give them the skills to be able to do that with a little more confidence. 

When we move on to Level 2, it’s really starting to develop a deeper level of understanding. Connect some of the dots, if you will. So we start to look at comparative sets here. Why is this product different from this product? And again, through that lens of production. So from selecting and processing raw materials to decisions made during fermentation, still operation. So decisions we can make in how we operate our in mind, stills that might impact style and quality. And then finally things that we’re doing post distillation that lead to what’s in that final bottle. By understanding each of those steps and different decisions that can be made, you’re better able to understand and articulate the quality of the spirit in the glass. And here we look at kind of 25 to 30 hours of study. It’s a slightly bigger examination.

So it’s a 50-question multiple choice test here. And here we have a range of passes. So 55% is a pass. Over 65% is a merit. And over 85% is a distinction here. Again, 55%, some people think, well, that’s quite low for a pass mark. But we have an understanding that this is a development curve. And we don’t want to make things unnecessarily difficult when we understand that people are on this journey and they’re constantly evolving and growing. So 55% is a pass. But those students who really do put in the extra time and effort, they have that ability to score a merit or a distinction there.

And at Level 2, we’re generally tasting more spirits. So we’re looking at a broader array of spirits and then more spirits from each category to be able to compare some of those different choices. For instance, the Level 1, you might just taste a VS cognac. At Level 2, you might compare a VS with an XO so that you can show how that change in maturation is impacting how that spirit expresses itself in a glass. So normally a student taking a Level 2 class in person, maybe tasting anywhere from kind of 25 to 30 spirits over the duration of that course. 

Now, a student who’s studying by themselves online, there is quite often an expectation that they’re going to have to procure spirits themselves. Fortunately for spirits, there’s a lot of 50 ml airplane bottles out there. You can find friendly bars that might be willing to pour you a half ounce pour. And then depending on where you are, there may be some solutions for kits to be shipped as well. Obviously, in the U.S., that’s a little challenging with our three tier system and intrastate shipping. Some of our providers do offer kits that can be picked up locally as well. So there’s a variety of solutions to try and meet the student where they are. 

Now, if you want to look at Level 3, here we’re taking that understanding and really digging deeper so that by the end of it, the student has the ability to explain the why, if you will. So they’re going to gain a more detailed knowledge and understanding of spirits and their production choices. And then they’re going to learn how to apply that knowledge to explain style and quality. This is a course that cannot be taken lightly. We generally expect an 85 to 90 hours of study, some of that guided, some of that self-study. This is a different expectation in terms of exam here as well.

So we still have a 50-question multiple choice test that tends to focus on a lot of the rules and regs of different spirits. So those standards of identity, minimums, maximums, distillation strengths, maturation times, raw ingredients that are permitted or not permissible. And we have a much broader array of spirits here. So here we start to explore some of the more esoteric spirits of the world, like shochu, soju and awamori. We cover a broader selection of Latin American spirits, pisco, agave spirits and raicillas, and fruit spirits as well. Eau de vie and South African brandy, Spanish brandy. So lots and lots covered here.

And then as well as that 50-question multiple choice test, we also have 10 multiple choice questions. These are short answer questions that range from quite basic options where you have to state, list, or identify some basic rules, regs, facets, pieces of information, to more in-depth questions where you might have to describe processes and procedures. Or explain why a spirit is going to manifest the way it does based on your knowledge of those production choices. So that’s quite a lot smaller, so that’s quite a big undertaking. So a level three exam generally takes about two and a half hours. 

And I haven’t got to the key yet, which is the tasting exam at Level 3, which is a blind tasting of two spirits. Now I will say for that tasting exam, which does tend to intimidate a lot of people, there are a relatively narrow set of examinable spirits. Again, we’re not trying to see if someone can identify any spirit that we pull from the ether and pour in front of them. It’s if you’ve done the work. Can you work through this system of collecting data and then assessing that data to come up with an argument for quality, to be able to make an objective assessment as to what that spirit might be, based on those parameters? So a big course there.

And a Level 3 course, it can be done as a five and a half day in-person course. Quite a lot of folks like to do the online offering, which gives them nine, 10 weeks to get to grips with everything. We have a really robust online classroom for all of our courses that’s available. But at Level 3, it’s proved really, really helpful. And we’ve just done a big refresh of that, providing a lot more resources for both our educators and the students to make sure that they’re maximizing their opportunities for success there. But there is a certain amount of adulting involved as well. I mean, you really do get out of these courses what you put in. 

Paul Clarke

And we mentioned at the outset that there have been some recent changes to this top level spirits program, to Level 3. Can you give us some broad stroke explanations of the kinds of things this program now covers? And what was the rationale for this kind of update? 

Rob McCaughey

First of all, the course was doing well and we were relatively happy with it. But a lot of the feedback we were getting from educators and students was that they just wanted more support, more resources to help them engage with the content in different ways. It’s a lot of content,. I’m not going to try and sugarcoat that for people. It’s a big course, and it’s ultimately really rewarding when folks are successful. However, it is quite challenging. We’ve got students from all over the world. Level 3 right now is only available in English, so quite a lot of students who are taking it with English as a second or third language. So we really wanted to make sure that we were making it as accessible for as many people as possible. 

Now the theory content hasn’t changed dramatically. I mean how spirits are made is still how spirits are made. But what we have found is having access to more practice questions, working through those questions with students in a methodical way so letting students see other answers of different qualities giving them some insight into how our marking philosophy works and then providing just lots and lots of extra resources to be able to do exercises practice questions. This has kind of allowed us to really help the students fine-tune their revision so that they’re best prepared for the exam.

The place where we’ve had a little more change in terms how we present things is on the tasting side of things. And this was primarily simplifying our lexicon a little more, giving our educators more scope to use locally relevant vocabulary think about them. Well, if we’re talking about rye whiskey “dill” is a very common descriptor for rye whiskey. But that’s not necessarily universally going to be the case. So I think we wanted to give our educators the scope to be able to recognize some of that regional nuance and still reward the students for for being able to answer successfully.

The other part is the assessment of quality so the conclusion, which historically is the most challenging part. And there are a total of 16 points available there across the two spirits in the exam. That was the area where students were struggling the most. I think, honestly, the rationale for that was that we weren’t necessarily setting them up for success as successfully as we could have been in terms of how to approach that. So we went from having a broad set of kind of five criteria in terms of balance, length, intensity, complexity, expressiveness that students could kind of talk about to asking simpler questions.

Now what we’ve done is change that to a series of prompts that focus on balance and expressiveness. So are the aromas balanced? And if so you know when we’re talking about aromas what’s the source of those raw material, fermentation, maturation? Is there a balance there or is anything distracting standing out in terms of textual balance? So a lot of times here we’re focusing on ethanol oak potentially sugar. How are those things interacting with each other? Are they complementary? Is something kind of standing out that’s getting in the way of some of those other attributes? And then the balance between the aromas and the textures, how cohesive are those things?

So, very simple questions that the student can then answer by saying the aromas of raw material oak and fermentation are well balanced with each other. And that’s okay. That’s a positive attribute that helps me when I’m getting to my assessment of quality. Likewise on the expressiveness side thinking about that persistence from the nose to the palate to the finish do things grow in a positive way so they kind of persist in a very elegant way there’s a slight drift. Quite often spirits will have this kind of aromatic drift on the end. So we’re looking at that aromatic development also textual development.

I think this is something that’s probably the most underrated facet of a well-made spirit is how does it feel on the palate? So that idea of kind of a beginning, a middle, and an end. And you know, how does that ethanol evolve? Is there some sharpness on the attack? Does it become gently warming in the midpalate? How does that present towards the end? And then thinking also about expressiveness. How well articulated different facets of the spirit? Is anything kind of generic muddled or is everything really clear and well defined?

By having these kind of very simple questions that a student now can answer it allows them to build up their profile of that spirit. So if everything they are saying is positive, that’s an outstanding spirit. If everything is primarily positive but there’s one thing that could be a little better that’s going to be a very good spirit. If some things are positive some things could be better that’s a good spirit, that’s generally kind of your baseline where you start with things. And then if that could be better or negative start to outweigh the positive attributes then we’re moving into acceptable and poor spirits.

So having that approach first of all allows us to remove quite a bit of bias and subjectivity and allows the students to very clearly sort of see, okay, I’ve got five positives here. There’s a tendency for people not to want to call something outstanding unless it’s the greatest thing they’ve ever tried. So this then frees them of that kind of onerous burden and says, OK, there’s five positives here. This is an outstanding spirit. That doesn’t mean it’s the greatest thing I’ve ever had. It just means that it is very well put together. And I have to appreciate what the producer was trying to do when they put this together and put it in the bottle. 

And for me, the feedback we’ve had so far has been really, really positive. So these changes came into effect in February. We’re just starting now to get some of our first exams through. And so far, the marks have been very positive. We’ve definitely seen an upward trend. And the feedback from our educators has been positive. Obviously, students often aren’t aware of the changes. But seeing that upward tick in pass rates and feedback from our educator community is really fantastic to see. 

Paul Clarke

Fantastic. And, you know, our audience is primarily in the U.S. We have listeners around the world, but we’re primarily in the U.S. For folks who are looking at the next steps that they could take, if they’re interested in pursuing this, are there places to turn, resources available, places they can find out answers to questions? 

Rob McCaughey 

Absolutely. So WSET works through a network of program providers around the world. And that’s true of the United States as well. So we have a variety of providers, some of whom specialize in spirits. So I will say the first place to go is obviously WSETglobal.com, shameless plug for our website there. And you’ll find on our where to study page, you can filter there by qualification, method of study. If you prefer to learn digitally or you prefer to learn in person, you can use those filters to kind of zone in on a class or program provider near you. 

I’d also say if you’re interested in understanding the differences between our qualifications, you’re not quite sure where to start. I think it is significant to point out that you don’t have to take Level 1 before you take Level 2. They both assume no prior knowledge. One is just a bigger, broader course that has more expectation of the student and will give you more information. But sometimes being able to understand the differences between those courses beyond just price is a useful thing. So each of our courses has a specification that outlines the learning outcomes, assessment criteria, the examination protocols.

So if you go to our website and go to our qualifications page, you’ll be able to find that specification there. And that’s a really useful first place to stop if you’re trying to navigate our qualifications and which one is the best fit for you. Likewise, reaching out to one of our program providers, reaching out through our WSET Global website to one of our customer service team if you have a question. We’re always happy to either answer questions or pass people on to someone who might be better equipped to answer them.

And then finally, just look out for us, reach out to us. We have a blog, we have a YouTube channel, we have social media channels. We’re always sharing information with best practices, fun videos, bite-sized seminars that we do. We’re at most of the big trade shows. You can always kind of find us standing next to a bar, tasting something delicious. So I would always say reach out to us personally. And even myself, I’m not that tricky to find. So feel free to reach out to me through LinkedIn, social media, or send me an email. And I would always like to share the chat with people who are interested in learning more about our qualifications. 

Paul Clarke

We are heading toward the exit here. Is there anything we haven’t covered? Anything else you’d like to share about WSET spirits programs, or the way forward? 

Rob McCaughey

So there’s a couple of things. In terms of key markets in the U.S. where you might have more access to our qualifications and others, where we’ve seen success so far. We’ve seen a lot of success so far in Texas, in both Austin and Houston. We’re starting to do very well in New Orleans. In New York City. We have great partners in Bardstown, Kentucky; Tampa, Florida; Boston; San Francisco. So there are markets already where you can find great options to learn in person. And then our digital end-to-end solutions are really helpful for those who maybe are time poor, maybe can’t commit to traveling somewhere and spending a few days in a different city. So I would always recommend exploring our digital options, which really do increase the bandwidth of who can access our qualifications and courses. 

I’ve been drinking the Kool-Aid for a long time. But I have watched in real life how our qualifications can fundamentally change people’s lives and careers. I think we really are the connective tissue of the industry. We’re the subject matter experts. We work with everybody and for nobody. So that brand agnosticism, I think, is a fundamental part of our success. And we’re trusted by the beverage alcohol community.

And I think when you consider those things and the impact it can have for what is in the grand scheme of things relatively affordable, I’m not going to try and sweep under the rug that these things do have a price attached to them. Right now, times are tricky for a lot of people. But I think if you’re going to make that investment in your professional development or just personal development, a WSET qualification is a great way to spend those funds and do that for yourself. 

Paul Clarke

Rob, it’s always wonderful to talk to you. Thanks so much for being on the podcast and for sharing all of this with us. 

Rob McCaughey

It’s always a pleasure, Paul. I’m happy to chat with anybody who needs to reach out. Thanks, everyone. 

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Paul Clarke 

Head to WSETGlobal.com to find out more about all of WSET’s programs and to find a course provider near you. 

And that’s it for this episode. Subscribe to Radio Imbibe to keep up with all our future episodes. Head to Imbibemagazine.com for all kinds of stories and recipes. Follow us on Instagram, Pinterest, Threads, and Facebook for all our day-to-day coverage. If you’re not already a subscriber to the print and/or digital issues of Imbibe, let’s change that right now. Just follow the link in this episode’s notes and we’ll be happy to help you out. I’m Paul Clarke. This is Radio Imbibe. Catch you next time.