Episode 126: All In on Gin With Simon Ford and Terry Fraser

Gin is the quintessential cocktail spirit, and the foundation of every great Martini and Negroni. For this episode, we look at the ingredients and techniques that go into making some of the world’s best gins with Simon Ford, creator of Fords Gin, and Terry Fraser, master distiller of Tanqueray London Dry Gin and Gordon’s Gin.

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Paul Clarke

Hey everybody, welcome back to Radio Imbibe from Imbibe magazine. I’m Paul Clarke, Imbibe‘s editor in chief. And whether you’re a subscriber to the magazine or a regular listener to this podcast, or even if you just mainly follow Imbibe through our social media feeds, it’s probably been impossible over the past couple of months not to have noticed that we are head over heels about Martinis. 

We’ve got a Martini on the cover of our May/June issue and a deep dive into the cocktail and some of its close relatives in those pages. In previous episodes of this podcast, we’ve also explored best practices for mixing Martinis with bartenders from across the country and talked about Martini history and the Martini in the modern day with Imbibe contributing editor and fellow Martini lover, Robert Simonson. 

But at some point in any Martini conversation, the talk needs to come around to gin. Yes, we’re aware that many Martinis are mixed with vodka and we’ve come to terms with that. Whatever you prefer, you do you. But gin remains a central part of Martini history and the Martini’s identity. And, as we start moving deeper into summer and looking at other cocktails across the spectrum, it’s helpful to remind ourselves that gin is the quintessential cocktail foundation. 

So before we move on from our May/June issue, we wanted to turn our attention on this podcast to that central character in the Martini and in so many other cocktails, gin. Now, if you’re a regular listener to the Radio Imbibe podcast, then you probably know a little or a lot about gin already. So for this episode, we invited in a couple of people who, it’s probably safe to say, know a lot more about gin than most of us put together. Terry Fraser is the master distiller of Tanqueray Gin and Gordon’s Gin, two of the biggest-selling brands of gin in the world. A recipient of a lifetime achievement award from the Spirits Business in 2023, Terry has spent more than four decades in the spirits industry. Today he continues to make Tanqueray and Gordon’s using recipes and practices initially developed centuries ago.

And I first met Simon Ford almost 20 years ago, when he was working at the time as a brand ambassador for Plymouth Gin and Beefeater Gin. Simon moved on a few years later to establish his own brand, Fords Gin, which introduced a new, classically-styled gin into the gin space. Whether you’re a Martini fan or a gin and tonic person, or if Negronis are more your thing, listen closely, because Terry and Simon have very unique and detailed perspectives on gin to share with us for this episode. 

[music]

Terry, Simon, welcome to Radio Imbibe. 

Simon Ford

Good to see you, Paul. 

Terry Fraser

Absolute pleasure to be on your show. 

Paul Clarke

Great to have both of you on the podcast. And thanks so much for both of you for doing this and for participating in what is becoming our ongoing celebration of Martinis and everything about Martinis that we’ve been doing for several weeks now, both in the magazine and on the podcast and in our online coverage. And I wanted to have both of you on, because we at Imbibe have been talking about Martinis a lot, and you can’t really talk about Martinis without talking about gin.

Terry, you have decades of experience making Tanqueray and Gordon’s gins, some of the most popular gins in the world. And Simon, you haven’t been at it quite as long as Terry. But you’re certainly making your mark on the gin world with Fords gin. So really, I could ask for no two better people to join me for this episode. And what we’d like to do is do a little bit of a gin deep dive with the two of you today. And can we start off just with a little gin 101 before we get into deeper details? So at its simplest, for those just starting to explore, what is gin and how is gin made? How do you guys do your jobs? Terry, can I ask you to start? 

Simon Ford

Yeah, you’ve got to ask Terry to start. 

Terry Fraser

It’s interesting what you say about a long time. I’m actually at this very week. I’ve been 42 years. 

Paul Clarke

Oh, wow. 

Terry Fraser

So yeah, so a long time. Really, there’s three different styles of gin. So the first one would be London dry style gin. You have a distilled gin as well. And you also have a compounded gin. 

So I was thinking about even just taking one of these as an example. Say London dry. That’s what would make Tanqueray London dry, it’s that process. And that’s really using a copper pot still. So we’ll use that copper pot still. We’ll add in a grain-neutral spirit. So you can use barley, rye, corn. In this case, we use wheat. So it’s all wheat grain that we use. We’ll add that into the still, which has to be over 96% ABV.

So I think for the purpose of the States, I think that’s about 192 proof. Is that correct? We will then, I’d say once that’s in the still, we’ll add a volume of demineralized water to that. And that reduces the charge strength to round about 60%, so 120 kind of proof. And that’s really probably kind of two things. It’s one, you just get that nice kind of charge strength for the botanicals. And also, it stops the still from drying out during the distillation process. 

So the next part of that, or the process, would be to add the natural ingredients of botanicals. Obviously, juniper would be the main one. In this case, we would add, for Tanqueray London dry, we’d add coriander seed. We’d add angelica root and also licorice root powder to that distillation. So once all the ingredients are in, some distillers, they will leave those botanicals sitting in the still for a period to kind of macerate in that with the spirit to release the oils from those botanicals.

But in the case with Tanqueray, we probably do a wee bit of up front work. We let the botanicals, especially juniper, mature for a period of 18 months. So what happens there is that when we actually add the botanicals. As soon as they’re in the still, we can close the still up, apply the heat onto the steam coil, which is inside the copper pot still, and we get that character at a very early stage, the kind of juniper oils coming across at an early stage. 

So I’m thinking if there’s three cuts here, a London dry distillation, and those three cuts, the first one will be your head’s cut. So after probably about 50 minutes to an hour, you should start to see the vapors, the hot vapors, kind of rise up to the head of the still. And as the hot vapors are rising up to the head of the still, you’ve got two cooling sections. So you’ve got a jacket cooling just above the OG of the still. Also you’ve got cooling, like a big bath at the top of the head of the still. That’s really kind of creating reflux. So that’s knocking down your higher alcohols, and it’s allowing the lighter ones to flow through and down the lyne pipe.

Once the lighter alcohols start to kind of flow down the lyne pipe, they come in then contact with a condenser. So that’s basically a shell and tube condenser. The hot vapors are hitting these cold tubes. And that’s what comes out the spirit safe is you have to start with the liquid coming through. So on the head side of things, it’s very much that the distiller will make the call. We’ll make the call to make sure they’ve got that correct character. That will run for a kind of period of time, constantly because you’re nosing that spirit safe coming across. So initially you’ve all got that higher ABV kind of notes coming across, very neutral, with light botanical notes coming through. And once you get to the stage where you’re looking for a character.

Once you’ve got that character you require for that type of gin, that’s when you would cut your heads. Basically that’s that part we finished with, and then that’s you starting the product run. That product run, every hour we monitor the distillation, so we’re nosing it every hour, we’re checking ABV every hour. And then it will be after, say, five, six hours, you then get to the end of that distillation. So you’re then starting to get to a stage where you may start to get a bit more stewed notes, a bit feinty notes. That’s when you cut it, that’s when you know you’ve got your product, which will finally go into the bottle. And that spirit is then transferred to a storage vessel, and that will eventually go way down to the bottling lines. 

Paul Clarke

You also mentioned distilled gin and compound gin as the other two styles. 

Terry Fraser

Well, London dry, a key thing about London dry, is you can’t add anything after that distillation process. So to maintain those London dry credentials, you can’t add anything apart from de-mineralized water, or you can add more neutral spirit if you used to do that. With distilled gin, the difference there is that after that, distillation, so distillation will be the exact same as a London dry distillation. But post-distillation, you have the flexibility to add different type of natural flavouring. So if you want to add an orange flavour to it, or a lemon flavour, or whatever character you’re trying to produce in that gin, that then becomes a distilled gin. So it doesn’t have the conditions of a London dry anymore.

If I think that the third one is the compounded gin, so that’s really taking neutral spirit, adding a kind of pre-flavoured juniper, kind of coriander, kind of notes, get the flavoured gin to that neutral spirit to create a compounded gin. 

Paul Clarke

Right, right. And the compounded gin, the last one you just mentioned, that is kind of, yeah, in some way it’s the easiest. You just take the neutral spirit, you add your flavourings and whatever. But also, as you mentioned, it’s kind of a lazy way to go about it. When you’re talking about distilled gin and London dry gin, really there is kind of a little bit more of a technical artistry about it, if I may. Is that fair to say? 

Terry Fraser

Yeah, yeah. There certainly is, when you’re involved in stills and making sure you’ve got that consistency of the ingredients there as well, and that whole kind of profile, it’s about taking care. So at the end of the day, if you want to be Tanqueray London dry, you want to make sure you’re ensuring that you’ve got a consistently high quality product all the time. So that’s a massive brand, as we all know. And for me, that’s every day, that’s about making sure that consistency is there and quality. 

Paul Clarke

Right, right. So basically, we’re going to take compound gin and just kind of forget about that for the rest of this episode. So we’re going to be talking about distilled gin, London dry gin for most of this. And you have this basic process for making it. You have a few defining aspects for gin, such as juniper. I mean, that’s the defining character. Once you have that foundation, though, what kinds of creative options do you have as a gin distiller to make your own imprint on a gin? And how does that affect kind of the production decisions that you make? Simon, could I ask you to start us on this one? 

Simon Ford

Sure. I almost feel like this is one for Terry, too. But honestly, it’s such an honor to be on this, cool, with you, Terry. I’m a huge fan. The answer to that question, Paul, is almost anything you want. You know, like if you can distill it, you can add flavors. But of course, you know, what I learned, and as you know, you know, my background was working with Plymouth and then I got a chance to work with Beefeater. And now I get to work with Charles Maxwell at Thames Distillers. If there’s one thing I learned from them, there are certain things that just work in gin. I think that the best gins and the best gin distillers know this and they use certain and specific ingredients. 

I would probably start with coriander, which many of the great distillers would call the foil to the juniper, you know, like the great balancer. You know, like if juniper gives gin its character, then coriander certainly gives it its structure. And those two just love each other. When I would say citrus is a very important component to gin. And one would argue that certain gins get their citrus from coriander, too, the sort of power and importance of that. And I think that those are fundamental building blocks of gin. A lot of gins use an ingredient called orris, which is considered a binder of flavors, which is quite an interesting one because it doesn’t have an essential oil like most. 

But I think what’s happening in gin, what we pull from these flavors, you know, when you do that lemon zest across the top of your Martini and those oils spread across it. It’s those oils that gin distillers call essential oils that get cooked into gin when you’re making a real gin and give gin its flavor. And juniper has that and coriander has that. As we all know, citrus has that. It’s those flavors that create balance on the palate.

So you have something like citrus giving the sides of your tongue some feeling. And juniper has got a little bit of sourness and bitterness. And that’s the back of your palate. That structure that you get from coriander sits on the top of your tongue. And so, you know, it makes sense that you might as a gin distiller create balance by having something that gives a perception of sweet as well. So you see things like licorice or cinnamon find their way into.

And so a really good gin producer, and I’m almost nervous having Terry here as you put me. But a really good gin producer knows that you want balance of palate. You know, it’s important on any spirit. It’s important when you create a food dish, a cocktail. Well, it’s equally as important on a gin, if not, you know, more so. That balance gets pulled by the choice of botanicals that a distiller chooses.

And so the importance of creating a recipe for gin is the most important part from my personal sort of experience. The hardest thing to get right, you know, once you have your recipe, it’s about ingredients and recipe. You become a baker. You know, you’ve got to be precise and make it precisely. But it’s really about getting that original recipe down and following that recipe. And that recipe usually, you know, comes from all those flavors that we just talked about. 

But honestly, to go back to the core question that you asked, Paul, is, you know, what happens after juniper? A lot. The choices are endless. But thankfully, the best distillers in the world know the limitations of those ingredients. 

I will just share one last little anecdote before your next question. But I remember when I was first coming up with the concept for Fords gin. And most of the conceptualization of Fords came from looking at how different flavors pair with other flavors that would work in cocktails. And it comes from a beautiful place. I remember bringing these recipe ideas to Charles Maxwell, who knows how these actual botanicals work in a still, as Terry does. And I called him the master of no nonsense at this point. I’d be like, he would look at my, he goes, Ford, no, that will never work. Oh, nice idea.

But do you not realize what happens when you put that in a still? And so the skill of a distiller is really knowing how those botanicals work. And so I was very fortunate when I had all my crazy ideas to have someone with a lot of skill as a distiller to actually be able to sort of translate the ideas into something that would work in a balanced gin. 

Paul Clarke

Right, right. And Terry, I want to hear from you. And also, I mean, Simon brought up an interesting point, is how you use those botanicals. It’s not so much just, you know, putting in like a scoop of juniper. There’s a process into how you think. Could you please share some of your insight with us? 

Terry Fraser

Yeah, yeah. think of Tanqueray London dry. So it’s been around for, what, 200 years. And we still, this is in God’s mercy, we still, due to this very day, we still stick to the original recipe from the 1830s, which is something I’m very proud of. It’s someone who, kind of, well before me and will be after me as well, who will continue that kind of tradition. 

And just kind of building on what, kind of, Simon was saying, and one word I use there that I use all the time, it’s about balance. So you need to make sure you’ve got that right balance there. And I talk about balance of botanicals. So once you’ve kind of got that recipe, you lock it in once you’ve got that perfection there. So I think of London dry took some like two years to develop, over 300 distillation trials, till Charles Tanqueray got to that perfect liquid that we see and love in our Martinis. And there is only four botanicals in that. 

And I think of the ones that Simon spoke about, juniper. It has to be there. That’s always going to come through. You’ve got your coriander bringing along your citrus notes and you’ve got your licorice as well providing that bit of kind of sweetness. But there’s one that I always say that people don’t talk enough about and it’s angelica root. So we use angelica root in Tanqueray, that’s the fourth one. And I think it’s so played down and not spoken about too much. And it really, for me, that brings everything together. It provides a bit of chocolatey, a bit of warmth, but it also provides the ability to bind all the different characters together. So your citrus and your piney notes during that whole distillation process. And I think it’s so, I think it’s an underestimated botanical that should get more kudos. 

Simon Ford

Terry, this is going to make us the two saddest people in gin. But angelica is my favorite gin botanical. And whenever I say that out loud, I’m like, I must be so boring to everybody. 

Terry Fraser

Not to me. 

Simon Ford

Someone to go out and drink with and talk about the benefits of angelica. Good gin. Because Paul, in my opinion, the best Martini gins, you know, and I did this experiment long before Fords gin, all seemed to have angelica there. They just, it was like, that was the common ground. A good gin that had good mouthfeel and balance, that just sort of seemed to bring balance of flavor to the mouth in a Martini. Angelica was always present. It’s the, it was the, apart from juniper, so. 

Paul Clarke

Right. How do you identify that? Like, if you’re, if you’re tasting a gin, what is it? What are the signatures that you’re looking for, for angelica to say, oh, there it is. 

Simon Ford

Well, you had, you, you said a few flavors. That’s it. I sometimes get sort of a sort of celery, vegetal flavor sometimes. I definitely get a sweetness.

Terry Fraser

Yeah. 

Simon Ford

Angelica used to be used, crystallized for sweets in the Victorian era. You know, it is a root. It gives some dry, dryness. Terry had pointed out to it, binding the flavors and providing, and just pulling everything together. You know, a bit like having sweet and sour almost in a cocktail that brings everything together. But for me, it’s that little blast of sweetness. But it seems to have a little bit of viscosity that comes with it. And that’s why I think I’ve always liked it in Martinis. It does need to be balanced by those other botanicals. But once it’s there, it brings that balance. I do think it’s why Tanqueray is such a great gin for Martinis. I do think it’s why Fords is a great gin for Martinis. It’s why I think Plymouth is a great gin …

Terry Fraser

Yeah. 

Simon Ford

… for Martinis. I attribute it a lot to the angelica. 

Terry Fraser

I think what’s interesting there, Simon, is you mentioned about the kind of celery notes as well. And what’s interesting is that we did a Tanqueray lovage gin. It was a kind of one-off we did a few years. But it was very interesting to me, to be honest. It makes me laugh just thinking back to it. But so the lovage root and the angelica plant, the two, they love each other. They actually grow well beside each other. So in the same field, you will find a lovage root and an angelica root. And when you look at the two plants, I struggle to distinguish which one was angelica and which one was lovage, because they look exactly the same. But lovage does bring that kind of celery root notes kind of come in too. 

Simon Ford

I’ve got to say, Paul’s listeners here at Imbibe. Did you know it was going to get this nerdy? 

Paul Clarke

Oh, I count on that. Go there. And actually, Terry, you brought up a really good point where you said you did this version several years ago with the lovage. And Simon, it’s been relatively recently that you were developing Fords. When you are thinking about these gins, when you’re thinking about something new that you’re going to make, do you have a particular kind of goal in mind? Do you have kind of like a flavor, aromatic picture in your head of what you’re aiming for? Are you thinking about how it’s going to be used? Are you thinking, well, this will be a fantastic Martini gin. This will be great with tonic. How do you think about that? And how do you balance that in your head when you’re putting together some kind of formulation for a new gin? 

Terry Fraser

Yeah, that’s a good question. And I always think that if you can make a good gin that fits well with a G&T and fits well for the Martini, the rest of it will come through. So the fantastic bartenders that we have, the mixologists that we have, it’s amazing what they could do. So if it comes across well in a G&T, comes across well in a Martini, all these other cocktails like Gimlets, Negronis, etc. will all be good for looking further down the line. But it was very interesting because we actually… You’re looking at trends. So the market people are looking at trends about what’s happening out there what people are looking for what kind of flavours and tastes they’re looking for. So it’s really, it’s not a quick process.

When we talk about London dry was over two years and what’s funny if I think back to 1830 and that was two years in development for Tanqueray London dry and if I fast forward that to 2000 so 170 years later was when Tanqueray 10 came along so Tanqueray 10 was really kind of based on starting with the four key botanicals so we already knew that there was a fantastic London dry there and what could we do differently. It’s frightening to think that Tanqueray number 10 is coming on for 25 years this. It still looks like ….

Paul Clarke

I still think of it as the new gin on the block.

Terry Fraser

Yeah. And it’s only had, I think it’s had like three iterations of the actual glass. That it’s in my favourite a Martini. It’s thinking about, at that time I suppose it was thinking about what’s happening in the markets. What can we do differently. And that’s what kind of, with Tanqueray 10 come along by introducing the fantastic citrus heart with the grapefruit, white grapefruit, the lime and orange as well. To make that citrus heart, make it a two stage process.

So being out there and speaking to the bartenders they’re so key to this conversation with the consumer and they’re the ones that will provide that feedback on what is the consumer looking for. And that’s really where it starts It starts at that point in time. What is the consumer looking for? What is the trend showing us? Right, let’s see if we can kind of develop something different that’s going to suit that demand.

Simon Ford

I, you know, I’ll add to it. You know, like, you know, obviously you’re talking about the history earlier of Tanqueray coming up to 200 years old. That’s going to be a good party, by the way, can I get invited?

Terry Fraser

200th anniversary. 

Simon Ford

But I think of most spirits as always starting life as something that is drunk neat. Historically, you know. You know, you put your brandy in a snifter. Your whiskey might get a splash of water or your scotch might get a splash of water. You can get into a fight if you have two ice cubes in a bourbon at some point you know, rather than one and, you know, your tequila as a shot your vodka chilled with Zubrowka you know, your fish and things like that. 

But gin, since the beginning of its sort of existence really is, you know, or its modern existence 200 years of modern existence, it has always been mixed. And what is beautiful about all of those flavors, some of those flavors can be scary to consumers: angelica, what is that? You know, that’s, I don’t know orris, never heard of it, you know. What are these things?

You know, the best way to look at them are these complex flavors that find their way into the product that once mixed just suddenly add complexity and balance and just suddenly go Oh, they cling to the vermouth and say, I like you. They say hello to the quinine and the tonic and go, oh, we, you know we belong together. And that’s kind of what all of those flavors in gin are sort of there for and that’s why I genuinely think that gin has always been the quintessential cocktail spirit. 

You know, I think there are more classic cocktails with gin any other category I could get into a fight with the tiki guys on that one please don’t come after me. But from my perspective gin belongs in cocktails and so looking at how it plays with other ingredients look at how it mixes and looking at the bartender to, you know, to Terry’s point to see what they would do with it and how they would use it is so important.

I want to bring it back to the very first thing that Terry said is if it works well in a gin and tonic you know that it’s got body and structure and that’s going to hold up in long drinks and if it works in a Martini well, you know that the star of a Martini that’s the one time gin gets to be the star of the drink and it has to do two things it has to play center stage on top of actually standing up to vermouth which is in itself a very complex ingredient that also has the added advantage of a little bit of sweetness.

And yet the gin needs to be a star in those scenarios so if you can get a gin that works well in those two drinks you’re well on your way. You know, one thing I learned on the journey of creating Fords and doing these flavor maps is if you look at what pairs well with juniper, lemon does, right? You know, we put lemon in our gin and tonic.

If you look at coriander well, that’s cilantro, that’s lime and so all of a sudden now the basis of your gimlet is working well, the basis of your gin sours you know, anything like a Corpse Reviver No. 2 or a Tom Collins that uses lemon. So all of a sudden with those two ingredients you create not just a structure for a great gin and tonic a great Martini but also all of those sours that are the basis of all the other drinks. And so your other botanicals are there at that point to really provide color and excitement to the gin and uniqueness to your own recipe. But for me, how it mixes, if it doesn’t make a good Martini, go home. Right, Terry? 

Paul Clarke

Now you’ve both talked about recipes and botanicals and finding the right mix and especially sticking with that recipe once you found it. Just continue doing it over and over, preserve it that way. But we’re still talking about plants here. And plants have variability. There are seasons, there are droughts. There are things that affect availability, supply chain issues. How do you have to take those things into consideration? Have these things created challenges to you over the years? And how do you maintain that kind of consistency in this variable world? 

Terry Fraser

They do create issues and concerns. Not so much issues, I’d say, but concerns. We have got a kind of changing world out there. And we’ve got to think about the kind of sustainability, et cetera. Thinking just with Tanqueray, we work very closely with, we’ve got great relationships with only about four or five botanical suppliers. These go back to Charles Tanqueray and Alexander Gordon dealing with these same suppliers going back to the 1800s. So it’s about having that kind of strong relationship. If we think of Tanqueray London dry, massive kind of million of cases of brands every year it’s selling. What we do is that, I know some distillers will, they’ll get their botanicals, they’ll macerate the botanicals in spirit for a period of time. 

What we do with Tanqueray London dry is that we actually, when we buy the botanicals, our juniper sits for 18 months. So we buy that, that sits in a warehouse for 18 months. And what happens at that point in time is that actually the moisture content will start to reduce. So it sits in a kind of nice ventilated warehouse, no direct sunlight, it’s just, it’s a dark warehouse. So it’ll sit in the pallet, in hessian bags, just not moving. They don’t move for 18 months. 

So during that period, the juniper will just, the moisture content will just reduce slightly all the time. But when we get to that natural distillation, when we are charging that still, we’re putting that juniper straight into the kind of still. And as soon as the juniper’s in, coriander, angelica, licorice, we then start that distillation at a very early, early stage. And what happens is the essential oils come through at a very early stage of that distillation. So we get actually quite good yield from a Tanqueray London dry, versus some distillers might have to maybe run their heads a bit longer to allow them to actually get the character to come through. And I talk about character.

Gin is all about quality, but it’s all about a character. So each gin has their own unique character. I probably can see it as a bit of a fingerprint as well. That’s what I’m looking for. So when I’m out there at a still, I’m at that spirit safe, I’m nosing, I’m looking for a particular character to be coming through at that very moment. And it’s about ensuring that the consistency, the quality of your ingredients is there all the way through. If you do that process, I think it’s relatively consistent for that product. 

Simon Ford

Yeah, I almost want to speak, Paul, to, you know, I learned this from Sean Harrison at Plymouth. But, you know, I remember on one of the first days I was working down at the Plymouth Distillery, he was micro distilling. I think he had something like 60, somewhere between 45 and 60 samples of juniper that he was considering buying for the next batch. And I sort of went along nosing them. This is, you know, with my primitive nose at the time. And I went, oh, that one’s a bit soapy. Yeah, he goes, yeah, that one’s useless. You know, that’s nice. He goes, yeah, but not the Plymouth style. He went, these three. And he pulled out three. And I smelled them. They all smelled quite similar.

Those were the batches that he was going to buy that year. And he was looking for that quality. He was looking for that stylistic, to Terry’s point, that he wanted to continue the style of his gin that he’s making.

Then to create consistency, he would blend that into the last year’s crop and then mix it in. So it would, you know, it would sit there, you know, like 18 months to Terry’s point. That way you get consistent quality, consistent flavor. And so it’s these great efforts. And so to that point, you’re following a recipe. But as we all know, the best recipes rely on the best ingredients. And that is probably because you’re following a recipe from 200 years ago or Charles is following a recipe from 13 years ago on Fords.

The most important thing at that point after following the recipe is making sure the ingredients that you get are the ones that you want for your character, but also the best quality to your ability. And so it is working with different importers. I’ve only ever had to change one ingredient with one importer, actually, in the 13 years, which is, is that unheard of, I’m like, it’s been, it’s been a really good run and it was just some, it was just our grapefruit peel, you know, but generally speaking, we’ve managed to use the same brokers for our botanicals, which has been really great. I’m glad. I hope that I can go another 50 years with the same ones. 

Terry Fraser

I think just, just going to add to that, I think with… distilling, so people say that the hard part is actually doing the distillation, for me I’ve always said that if you have the best of ingredients, you’ve got that consistency there and they’re just thinking of, thinking of Tanqueray, we still, this is a fact, we still reject 9 out of 10, so when we get say 10 samples sent in to us in the buying season, we reject 9 out of 10. And I’ve tried to kind of improve that figure but I can’t get away from this, we actually reject 9 out of 10 juniper samples that we get from our suppliers, which is not good for them. It’s a bit of a pain for them but you know something that’s about keeping that consistency there.

So if you’ve got the consistency and the quality and the character you’re looking for in your botanicals, you’ve got the best of quality of neutral spirit, so you do get different categories of neutral spirit, for me you’re already 60-70% there to produce a fantastic gin. 

Paul Clarke

Fantastic. You’ve both been working in gin for decades and you keep doing this, you keep making the same thing but also you revisit things over time. What still excites you about making gin and the process of making gin? What keeps it exciting for you on a daily basis? 

Simon Ford

I have to say it’s the bartenders. You know, the philosophy I’ve always had is, it’s not what we put in the bottle that is the final product, it’s what the bartender does with it that comes in the glass that is. And the thing that actually excites me and it might not be going to the direct core of your question as to what excites me about making gin. The thing that really excites me is people pick up that bottle and they go, “Oh, I can do something with this.” And it’s consistent and it’s different and it’s evolving.

The drinks I’m trying this year are different to the drinks I was trying 20 years ago. Bartenders are constantly finding new ways to work with our gins and turn them into exciting products and finding new ways to find uniqueness. In fact, their creativity is one of the most inspiring things. And then what makes it even more interesting or at least a lot of fun, my interest in what they do, well, they have that interest in what we do. And there’s this symbiotic relationship and it’s just so much fun from that perspective. Yeah. 

Terry Fraser

I suppose for me, from an exciting point, just kind of building on what Simon is saying, is that we have the world-class every year. So, I do have the pleasure of meeting some of these world-class bartenders who are just… what they can do with these liquids is just absolutely phenomenal. And I think, for me, I can be a bit of a people watcher. So, if I’m in a kind of bar, and I’ll kind of try to listen to the conversation that’s going on between the bartender and the consumer. And just for… I think for me, what excites me a lot is actually to be able to have that closer connection with the bartenders and help with the education, that makes any sense.

So, help them understand more about what we’re probably talking about here, understand more about the process of what goes in behind that liquid. So, they can then help them to have that conversation with the consumer. And for me, it’s like… I think, even thinking of botanicals, as well, there’s hundreds of different botanicals in there. So, if someone said to me, “Oh, Terry, let’s say we’re going to make a spice gin”. It’s like, “Well, that’s okay, we’ll use cloves, we’ll use cinnamon”, things like that. It just excites me, the potential and the opportunity out there. And, again, to be working with such fantastic brands is a pleasure, every day. It’s an absolute pleasure. 

Paul Clarke

We started this conversation with Martinis, and we’ve touched on the applications. Can I ask you, if you are so intimately familiar with the gin that you make has your imprint on it, what is your own personal preferred application, favourite application for your gin.

Simon Ford

I’ll start here, Terry, because it is a Martini. And honestly, the strength of the Martini, and what I mean by the strength, you know, it’s ratio to vermouth. It does depend on the vermouth, and it does depend on the mood, as you would concur, right? However, I love a Martini from the freezer. I don’t know what it is. It’s just like that extra chill, that extra kind of gloopiness that it has, that extra viscosity. The way that the twist sits on top of it. And so my personal favourite way to enjoy my gin is in a Martini and a freezer Martini for that matter. However, I will have to say that, sort of goes back to earlier.

You know, you have people like the masters at the Connaught, or the masters at Dante, or the masters at bars like actually on the front cover of the latest Imbibe, the Butterscotch Den, putting their own spins and twists. And, you know, but it is that all these like slight nuance differences to this one classic and great, beautiful expression, how gin should be celebrated. So yeah, I do. Mine’s a Martini. As boring as it might sound, it’s the most delicious way of enjoying four shots of gin in one go. 

Terry Fraser

I suppose for me it’s very interesting because the first time I got a number of years ago that I tried a Martini, I thought it was quite a strong kind of drink to be honest, and I was like oh, that’s not really for me. But you know, I don’t know if it’s an age thing but I think as I’ve gotten older I thought that’s actually quite good. So I do have a favourite which would be a dry Martini and with a twisted grapefruit peel, that is one of my favourites and that will be with Tanqueray 10. And probably another one with Tanqueray 10, and I do love a Gibson as well to be honest. I was introduced to that just not long ago.

But I do love a Gimlet. And the reason I’m saying a Gimlet is that I love citrus and for me it really brings a Gimlet, it just enhances all the, and Tanqueray 10, it really brings through all that citrus notes from the fruits that we actually use in Tanqueray 10. As you see I’m quite a citrusy kind of person so taste wise so yeah, that’s number two, yep, a Martini with a grapefruit twist and a Gimlet as well. 

Paul Clarke

Fantastic, we’re heading toward the final bell here, any parting thoughts on gin, anything that we didn’t cover that you want to make sure that you mention?

Terry Fraser

I think gin has a, still a very very rosy future and long, long may it continue for all our gins. There’s a lot of fantastic gins out there, obviously you could always be biased for your own gin but I think we need to kind of just appreciate each other’s gins. And I think generally out in the world there, I’m a member of the Gin Guild so you meet lots of people and I think you maybe as well Simon, I think it’s great when you’ve got a shared interest but yeah, I think there’s a rosy future for gin. 

Paul Clarke

Fantastic, we’re heading toward the final bell here, any parting thoughts on Gin, anything that we didn’t cover that you want to make sure that you mention? 

Terry Fraser

I think gin has a, still a very very rosy future and long, long may it continue for all our gins. There’s a lot of fantastic gins out there, obviously you could always be biased for your own gin but I think we need to kind of just appreciate each other’s gins. And I think generally out in the world there, I’m a member of the Gin Guild so you meet lots of people and I think you maybe as well Simon, I think it’s great when you’ve got a shared interest but yeah, I think there’s a rosy future for gin. 

Simon Ford

I concur about the rosy future, you know, what has been driving force in gin has been the bartender. It’s been amazing, I don’t know where we would be as an industry without their creativity. I think about the history of gin and the cocktails that made gin famous from the Singapore Sling to the Pegu Club, you know, the Martini, the Negroni in Italy, all of these drinks had a bartender behind them. And these are how we enjoy it throughout the world and right now there are classics being created, whether it was Audrey’s Gin Gin Mule, the Dante Martini, whatever it might be, you know, all of these things are being created now.

The future of gin is being written by today’s bartenders, the current state of gin was written by the past bartenders. And Terry you probably agree here, we provide the tools for them, you know, you know, as long as they keep using it then gin has a rosy future. So, you know, we want to thank the bartenders for their service to this wonderful category. Because without them, as much as I love the gin and tonic, it’s way more exciting and there is life way beyond the gin and tonic in this category. That’s just a great stable solid ground for a refreshing summer day on our two weeks of English summer. But after that, we need some other things to drink. 

Paul Clarke

Well, fantastic. Well, Simon and Terry, thanks so much for joining us for the podcast. And this has been a really interesting insight into the world of gin.

Terry Fraser

Thank you. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. 

Simon Ford

Paul, always a pleasure. Good to see you. 

[music]

Paul Clarke

You can find out more about Tanqueray, Gordon’s Gin, or Fords Gin by heading to any decent bar or liquor store around you. Really, that’s a great place to start. And you can also head online to Tanqueray.com, GordonsGin.com, or FordsGin.com. We’ve got those links for you in this episode’s notes. 

And if you’re looking for more recipes and info on Martinis or pretty much any type of gin cocktail, you can find it on our website at imbibemagazine.com. While you’re there, dig through the back catalog of podcast episodes to catch up on all our Martini coverage. And be sure to subscribe to Radio Imbibe on your favorite podcast app to keep up with all our future episodes. Follow us on Instagram, Pinterest, Facebook, and Threads for all our social media coverage. And if you’re not already a subscriber to the print and or digital issues of Imbibe, then let’s get you on board right now. Just follow the link in this episode’s notes, and we’ll be happy to help you out. I’m Paul Clarke. This is Radio Imbibe. Happy summer, everyone, and I’ll catch you next time.