Episode 118: Understanding Irish Whiskey With Sean Muldoon and Jillian Vose

Irish whiskey has been one of the biggest-growing categories in the spirits world in recent years, with a boom of new distilleries in Ireland and an ever-increasing range of options available to curious drinkers. For this episode, we talk about the modern growth and evolution of Irish whiskey, and the best ways to drink it and mix it in cocktails, with Sean Muldoon and Jillian Vose, co-owners of the upcoming Hazel and Apple in Charleston, South Carolina, and veterans of The Dead Rabbit in New York City.

Radio Imbibe is the audio home of Imbibe magazine. In each episode, we dive into liquid culture, exploring the people, places, and flavors of the drinkscape through conversations about cocktails, coffee, beer, spirits, and wine. Keep up with us on Instagram, Threads, and Facebook, and if you’re not already a subscriber, we’d love to have you join us—click here to subscribe.

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Paul Clarke 

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Radio Imbibe from Imbibe magazine. I’m Paul Clarke, Imbibe’s editor in chief. And if we go way back in time, in 2011 Imbibe ran a cover feature on the developing world of Irish whiskey. At that time, things looked promising for the category. While you could still count the number of operating Irish whiskey distilleries on the fingers of one hand, sales were up, exports were up, and curious drinkers seem to be gradually coming around to the world of Irish whiskey and the opportunities it offered. 

Our brand-new March/April issue just came out with our latest cover feature on Irish whiskey, and it’s safe to say that the landscape has changed just a little bit over the past 14 years. Today, more than 40 distilleries are in some stage of production or construction making whiskey in Ireland, and those few glimpses we had back in 2011 of the kinds of stylistic diversity that were possible in the category have really taken shape over the years. Pick up that issue of Imbibe if you haven’t already and take a look at this evolving landscape of Irish whiskey. 

And for this episode, we wanted to bring you the full interview we conducted with two individuals who know the Irish whiskey category inside and out: Sean Muldoon and Jillian Vose. Sean was, along with Jack McGarry, one of the co-founders of the Dead Rabbit in New York City and for a number of years, Jillian headed up the bar program there. Today, Sean and Jillian are based in Charleston, South Carolina, where, among other projects, they’re engaged in putting together a new bar, Hazel and Apple, expected to open later this year. We asked Sean and Jillian if they’d share some of their unique perspective on the Irish whiskey category, how it’s changed over the years, and where they see this evolution going so we can better understand the magnitude and the magic of everything that’s going on in Irish whiskey today. 

Before we get into that interview, a quick note from this episode’s sponsor, Teeling Irish Whiskey, the award-winning Dublin distilled Irish whiskey, founded by Jack and Stephen Teeling, who come from a long line of Irish whiskey makers. Teeling is known for their flagship small batch, a blended Irish whiskey made in small batches, finished in rum casks. 46 percent ABV and non chill filtered is a beautiful and flavorful sipping whiskey that also elevates cocktails like the classic Irish coffee. Head to teelingwhiskey.com to learn more. 

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Paul Clarke

Jillian, Sean, welcome to Radio Imbibe. 

Sean Muldoon 

Thanks for having us. 

Jillian Vose

Yeah. Thank you for having us, Paul. Great to be here. 

Paul Clarke

Absolutely. And, you know, I wanted to talk to you and have you on the podcast for a couple of reasons. First off, it’s always wonderful to talk to both of you. But also at the time our audience will be hearing this conversation, Imbibe’s March/April issue for 2025 will be out there in the world containing a cover feature on Irish whiskey. And both of you are formerly of the Dead Rabbit and are currently in the process of putting together your own place, Hazel and Apple in Charleston, South Carolina. And between the two of those, along with your other interests and activities, it’s fair to say you have some experience with Irish whiskey. Would that be true? 

Sean Muldoon 

Yes, very much so. 

Jillian Vose 

I would say so. 

Sean Muldoon 

Yeah. 

Paul Clarke 

And so here’s the big softball question to get you started. Knowing what you know about the category and how it’s been changing very rapidly and very recently, is this a good time to start exploring Irish whiskey for those who haven’t already started? And why might that be? 

Jillian Vose 

I would say yes. And I would say also, if you haven’t, you’re a bit late because the growth of the category has been going on for a while now and there has been some massive experimental things happening in the category. There’s just a lot going on. So I think for either if you are a whiskey aficionado, whiskey expert, or just beginning to start to explore the category of whiskey, Irish whiskey is a great thing to get involved with. You know, we all have the intro whisky, you know, that we had when we were younger, whether it be for me it was, I think, Maker’s Mark or something like that. And whatever.

We identify with whiskey in the beginning we can, you know, progress into different categories and higher proofs and things like that. But Irish whiskey kind of dips into all types of whiskey. So I think that no matter what whiskey you’re comfortable with or what with whatever whiskey that you know, there’s something for everybody. And as a bartender with the right knowledge that you can direct your guests into finding something in the Irish whiskey category that they like. 

Paul Clarke

Right, Sean, any thoughts on that? 

Sean Muldoon

So I think what you said is the key word she said was if you haven’t already. I think that in recent years, definitely since we’ve been in America myself, when Jack, when we first came to New York, talking 14 years ago we came here, was very little in the way of Irish whiskey and people didn’t understand it. Like, what people understood was something like Tullamore D.E.W. or Jameson, but nothing really beyond that. And I think when we came here, there was for some reason Ireland and neither of the which goes to show you how it’s grown and the last 14 years, whatever.

But thing is what we realized we had no intention when we first came to America of being this pilot that I would end up becoming or the whiskey had leading the sort of the game. When it comes to Irish whiskey currently is we never intended it to be that way from the outset. From the outset it was meant to be. We had a big Irish whiskey selection we were basing it on a bar back in Belfast. And in that bar, even if you were to go tomorrow, nobody knows much about Irish whiskey, they just sell it. And we had that. We were basing it on that. We expected that when we when we came to New York, we thought we’re just going to have a big selection and pick out your favorites.

Somebody who’s in o Irish whiskey, just pick your favorite. That’s the way we had. But we were quickly torn on this. And when we came to New York, because you can’t come to New York and claim to be an Irish whiskey bar, and know nothing about Irish whiskey. We were being interviewed by people like yourself who were asking, Tell us all about Irish whiskey educators. And we really didn’t know where to begin. I remember very clearly somebody said to me, just literally opening a bar and somebody said to me, Scotch whisky, in pot stills.

Why is it so that the Irish people talk about it when Scotch people are on as well, that they’re making their whiskey in pot stills? What makes Irish pot still whiskey so special? And I really she may as well be talking a different language. I didn’t know what she was talking about. It was at that point that we said we have to go and educate ourselves on this. And so off we went. But we did.

We never came to America with the intention to be these knowledgeable whiskey people. It was more like have a lot of whiskey in the bar and sell it, pick your favorites, whatever ones you like. And it was meant to be done really casually. Not that we were all educated and smart about it. But we realized very quickly to say when we came to America that a lot of people would like it, especially in New York, drank whiskey and you can’t come and not know much about it because that’s what they would want to know.

So I would say from then to now that people have definitely become much more versed in Irish whiskey. I can’t speak for the rest of America like I don’t know what’s happening in other parts, all the world. But I would definitely say that it’s way, way more popular now than it was when we came here. 

Jillian Vose 

To be fair, Sean, at that time when you were opening the bar, I was working at a very well-known cocktail bar and we didn’t know much about it. I knew there was Redbreast and Jameson. I knew that Redbreast was like the nicest thing they had on the back bar. And I knew that we would never carry some blended Irish whiskeys or put them in cocktails, according to the bar manager at that time. It was just seen as inferior. And so when I took over the program at Death & Co, I started learning a little bit more about Irish whiskey. That’s actually how I got the job at Dead Rabbit.

I didn’t know the difference. I didn’t know that there was different types. So I think that to be fair to Sean and Jack, the press was looking at asking you questions, but it was only because they were probably curious. But I’m glad that it happened because you guys doing that definitely helped put Irish whiskey on the map. And also, I think that that Dead Rabbit definitely helped make Irish whiskey accessible due to the Irish coffee and through cocktails. 

Paul Clarke

What were some of those things? Like Sean, you said, you know, when when a guest would ask about differences between Irish whiskey and Scotch whisky or what are the kinds of things that make Irish whiskey distinctive. You said you didn’t have a good answer to start off with. Once you got in there and did some of your education and started looking at some of the distilleries, some of the whiskeys out there. What were some of the things that you were able to come back to those guests with and say, Here is what makes Irish whiskey distinctive. Here’s what to look for in Irish whiskey. 

Sean Muldoon 

Well, first and foremost, we knew we understood the history, but we understood why pot still whiskey was called pot still whiskey. That’s something that we didn’t understand. We understood the difference is the four categories of Irish whiskey. You see the differences between them. I’m going to what the difference in how they were made and the difference in what you could expect of taste and that type of stuff from the different styles of whiskey. I can remember clearly journalist said to me, Tell me why I should like this whiskey. Just tell me why I should like it. And luckily for Jack at that time, Jack was the bartender behind the bar, and I was in front of the bar and she was asking me. She wasn’t asking him. And he was just so thankful that she wasn’t asking him. She was asking me.

And then what he did the following week was, just typical Jack for what he would have done, within within the next week or two was went over to Ireland and went and researched all the distilleries. It was only four that time. Went and asked a million questions that he was likely to be asked because he was the bargainer. He was the face of the bar at that time. And he knew that he might have got away with it at that time, but he wasn’t going to get over the next time because it was going to were all going to be directed to him, you know, so. But yeah, we understood it.

We would be able to have like a if I was sitting in a bar and I and I was able to pick out a whiskey that I liked, I’m able to tell you like what I’m getting from, able to tell you like depending on what was going and not all whiskey because would tell you how it was. Let me tell you bits and pieces about that whiskey that I would never have been able to tell you before, you know. 

Paul Clarke

The last time Imbibe ran a full fledged feature article on Irish whiskey was in 2011. And Sean, I remember I interviewed you for that as you were getting ready to open Dead Rabbit. And at that time, as you said, there had only, you know, you could count the number of Irish whiskey distilleries on one hand and have fingers left over. That’s a significantly different story today, as you noted. What are some of the newer distilleries bringing to the category in terms of energy or innovation or just simple enthusiasm? And how do you see this continuing to play out as it develops? 

Sean Muldoon 

Yeah. I mean, as I said, there was four distilleries when we opened that bar and when we did our book From Barley to Blarney. We did a book about the stories and pubs, how that started. How the idea for that came about was I bumped into Tim Herlihy. But I kept popping into him when I was back in Ireland. I was always going back out into research pubs and I always bumped to in some pub that I was researching. He was, nine times out of ten, he was there with American bartenders and they were all flying over and he was giving them a tour of distilleries and bringing them out to Tullamore to whatever it was, or bringing them to Teeling in Dublin or whatever it was.

He said to me, You can’t we can’t keep doing this. We’ve got to do a book. He said, I’m doing the distilleries, you’re doing pubs. And he says, Like when these bartenders come here from America and it was all done with Americans in mind because they all fly over to Dublin and they go to the service and then they go as far as long as you may go as far as them. But other than that, they don’t really go anywhere else. And we said that’s creative work of all the distilleries right now and all the best traditional pubs, the best proper pubs in the areas where booze distilleries are. Because the way Americans, they want to go to the best pubs, want to go to the real pubs. So we did that book with them in mind.

When we did that there was 33 distilleries with a couple in the pipeline maybe, but five or six that were applying for planning permission lot, but they hadn’t, got permission yet. Now there’s around 50 and probably way more. When we did that distillery tour, there was a couple of industry standards that were taking it to the next level. And I could name quite a few the ones that blew me away in recent years that are just doing things differently. I don’t mean to say anything about the other ones that are not mentioned here because they’re all doing things that are way.

But the ones that stand out to me going back were Dingle. I think Dingle Whisky is really good. I think that Waterford are doing really. But the Waterford was not about when we were doing that book. But I have since been and I thought Drumshanbo. I thought that was very interesting as well. But what I seen, I was out in County Clare, for example, two months ago. And I’m going to be going out again in two weeks and there’s a distillery there. I didn’t even know it existed.

And I started called Burton Distillery and it’s a town on the Silver Lake and Michael Distillery and I wouldn’t have even heard of it when I was in a bar. And the woman that I was talking to told me about it, and she actually arranged for me to go and visit the guy the next morning. But what he was doing, like he’s trying to create whiskeys Irish whiskey as it was done 150 years ago.

So it’s he’s using only like Irish oak, he’s using, of course, Irish water but he’s every everything about it. It’s done, it’s Irish barley. Everything about it is done exactly as that would have been 150 years ago, whatever it was. And he said like we’re aging each in our whiskeys these days in American bourbon casks, second fill, whatever. And he says, we would never have used American bourbon back in the day. It would have been Irish oak.

And the thing is, this guy was and he was just you would ask him a question and you’ll talk about something that happened a thousand years ago. It’s not the answer to anything you’re asking about, etc. Whereas he was really, really passionate about what he was doing and the thing that the thing that really got me interested in him was the woman who I was talking to who told me that he couldn’t get anybody to make the casks out of the Irish oak.

So he had a big whatever it was of Irish oak. You and he was trying to get somebody in Ireland to make that and he couldn’t get it. So we had to go with a European plan and to get the casks we had to get them sent back to. And I remember here when I heard us right, it was, you know, he’s got patience, that’s for sure. But when I went through him and met him. He was a very, very interesting guy, knew everything about what he was doing, obviously.

But the thing it’s all the to me, the thing it blew my mind was the quality of the whiskey itself. It was a three-year-old whiskey and I’m not doing it right is mindblowingly good. I thought it was going to be, and I didn’t know what to expect. When you seen this, that would make a mystery. And you see how he was making this whiskey. But the whiskey was really, really, really great. And at night this he can’t actually sell that as from what I’m gathering right now, he can’t sell to bars. You have to buy casks. But the quality of the whiskey, I’m just saying, and it was really, really, really interesting. 

Jillian Vose 

Killowen is doing great things too. They’re just doing really innovative stuff and they’re just doing like really unique casks, like tawny port and just like peated. They’re just they’re just innovative. I think that’s what makes Irish whiskey really unique, is that, you know, you asked about the difference between like Scotch and American and Irish and the fact that obviously there’s rules. They’re a little bit looser with Irish whiskey. And the innovation in the category is just beyond anything else that’s going on as far as whiskey goes. I feel. 

Sean Muldoon 

Well, I don’t know if you’re aware. Something that I learned was because back in the day sort of Irish whiskey came to what was being proclaimed and during Prohibition in America. It was a lot of it was like the Irish whiskey of Ireland was just made in the mountains and passed off as Irish whiskey with a label on it. And Irish whiskey got a real bad reputation. To protect the reputation of Irish whiskey these days in Ireland, some of those big distilleries, we’re talking about Bushmills, for example, Midleton they educate all the up-and-coming distillers.

So we were told this during one of our when we were doing our book. The smaller distilleries were telling us that they went and actually got taught by Midleton because so protective of the image of Irish whiskey, they didn’t want to see it. They offered this education for people who were launching their own whiskey. That’s something that I thought was very admirable, the fact that the stories are looking after the smaller industries. And they’re offering this because they they really care for the preservation of the of the image of Irish whiskey. You know, they don’t want to see inferior brands coming up and destroying them …

Paul Clarke 

Right. 

Sean Muldoon 

… you know. 

Paul Clarke 

And I’m sorry to interrupt, but actually, I am going to interrupt because on that point of view of innovation and kind of creativity, kind of like pushing the parameters a little bit more. Yes. Some of these newer distilleries are doing it. But it’s not just the distilleries that are kind of like seeing what’s going on some of these longer standing older, you know, the more kind of institutional Irish whiskey distilleries are also going down a similar path. Are there things that you’ve seen from some of these older producers that have particularly impressed you or that you feel are worth exploring a little bit more? 

Jillian Vose 

Absolutely. And, Sean, I’m sure you can emphasize on this, but I mean, Midleton is is, is. 

Paul Clarke

Midleton is Midleton. Yeah it’s it’s it’s very much it’s. 

Jillian Vose 

The mothership. Midleton is Midleton. Yeah. So Midleton really, you know, it kept the Irish pot still category alive. It really it has really forged innovation. And it’s you know because pot still Irish whiskey was lost, you know and Jameson kind of kept the category going during the seventies and helped the category not become extinct. They really they’ve kept the pot still tradition alive and then taught other distillers how to make it.

They basically have been teachers and they’ve been very transparent with craft, which is really admirable. But they also have a micro distillery, which is not a micro distillery. If you think about it, it’s the same size as some of the other distilleries. But they’re, you know, the Method and Madness line, for instance, is one of their new things that they’ve done. Yes, I really admire what they’ve done. mean, also Teeling as well has been really innovative. 

Paul Clarke 

Jillian and Sean. You’re also co-founders of one of the newer brands on the market, Outwalker. What kind of opportunity did you see for a whiskey like this? And how are you tapping into some of the possibilities that today’s Irish whiskey environment is offering? 

Sean Muldoon

I’ll talk from a branding perspective on that, Jillian can talk from a tasting perspective. A lot of the Irish whiskies that are coming out today, they depend a lot on their heritage like that, the little town that they’re from in this particular part of Ireland or whatever, and the bridge or whatever that people walked across for 100 years name and after that type of thing and it’s like in today’s age, you know, just like yourself, people are it’s an Instagram world. It’s everything’s quick. Everything’s got to be everything’s got to be immediate.

Nobody can be reading a lot of text on a label and they don’t really care about all that heritage stuff. They just want a name that pops out. So I was thinking more like a one-word name. Just the way Twitter is, just the way Instagram is one word. So we came up with that. There’s a story behind the whole Outwalker. But again, it was one word Irish whiskey under it and everything else is on a label attached to it. If you want, but not on the label because you don’t want to confuse it. You don’t want to make a messy. 

Jillian Vose 

Outwalker isn’t a real word. So it an easy trademark. But as far as a liquid goes, I think it was important. And I actually like the way that we developed the whiskey in general, because we did all that stuff before the liquid was created. Being that, you know, Sean and I are known for being part of cocktail bars, are known for drink development, it was important that I had something accessible, bartender-friendly, and something that was going to be affordable for cocktail venues. The blend, you know, I went over quite a bit to the distillery.

We get our liquid from Great Northern, which is owned by John Teeling, who also is responsible for Cooley. And his sons own Teeling distillery. So I knew that it had to be something that didn’t already exist. You know, I was not going to put something on the market that was just another blend that could easily be subbed out for something else.

So the blend is, you know, it is grain based, obviously. So 40 percent is a grain that’s aged in virgin American oak. Then there is 40 percent that’s aged in rye cask. And then 10 percent is a single malt aged in a white burgundy, which is very unique. And then 10 percent is pot style aged oloroso. So there’s no blend like it on the market and it’s at 44.5. A lot of Irish whiskeys are at 40 percent, which tends to get lost in cocktails sometimes.

I did kind of finagle with the proof a lot. So 44.5 was kind of obnoxious, but it definitely fits my personality, I guess. But I’m really happy with it. So it’s very unique. It stands out in cocktails, but it can be, it’s very elegant and has a beautiful minerality to it, I believe, my opinion. 

Paul Clarke

You know, anytime we talk about whiskey, we’re obviously focusing largely on appreciating the spirit itself and understanding what’s in the glass. But whiskey doesn’t exist in the vacuum. I mean, you both worked in some of the world’s best cocktail bars. You know this better than anyone else that, you know, whiskey likes to mix and mingle with, with all kinds of things. Anything from just a simple accompaniment to a beer to being mixed into a cocktail. So it’s kind of a two part question. If I like to sip Irish whiskey and explore Irish whiskey accompanied by a beer, how correct am I in doing that? And for the cocktail question, what avenues or approaches are particularly well-suited to using Irish whiskey and making cocktails? 

Sean Muldoon

The answer to your question about whiskey and beer. Like I do genuinely think that like a half a glass of Guinness, for example, and an Irish whiskey is a real beautiful way to drink, you know, whiskey. I see that in a bar, it’s impressive. I like to see somebody drinking that way. 

Paul Clarke

It just seems like, you know, kind of a match made in heaven. You know, they do just go particularly well together. 

Jillian Vose

That’s how I drink. I always do. I do a half pint. Only if they have the good glass, though. The tulip glasses. it’s a very special thing when you can get that. I’m very picky about Guinness, as Sean and I have researched it lot. And we’re very particular about how we pour a Guinness. And so I’m very particular how I drink my Guinness and there’s only bars that I would drink it. So like drinking cider. I think apples and Irish whiskey go really well together. So I’ll drink a nice dry cider and whiskey. But also depends on what whiskey you’re drinking.

You know, at the end the day, it’s whatever you like. I’m never going to tell you that you’re wrong. that, you know, as far as cocktails go, it’s endless. Irish whiskey is the most versatile spirit. And I maybe have a little bias, but I have had so much fun and the combinations are just endless. And because there’s so much going on, there are so many new products coming out in the category of Irish whiskey, there’s just so much to work with as far as cocktails. 

Sean Muldoon

Obviously, pot still whiskey is the quintessential Irish whiskey. But when years ago you could only ever get that from Midleton, and it was very expensive. It was too expensive to put in cocktails. And what is happening now, which is very interesting, is a lot of these new producers are new distilleries. They’re making pot still whiskey and releasing an earlier reach, maybe three year or four year. You would never have got that before. It would have been much, much older than that. And some of these whiskeys were actually very good. So, I mean, you will see moving forward. You will see pot still whiskey being used a lot more and cocktails because it’s more affordable.

Jillian Vose 

Or blends with pot still in it, or more pot still. Or, you know, you’re getting blends with all three styles. I love working with just grain whiskey. Use that in a stirred cocktail is amazing. Yeah, you’re getting blends that are malt and grain or malt pot so that just the combinations are endless. And there’s even rye whiskey, Powers is making a rye and there’s peated Irish whiskey. So, Calvados barrel aged. It’s so fun. And the opportunities are endless, what you can do with it as far as cocktails go. And just understanding what barrel aging does to a whiskey in general is just can open a lot of doors for you to understand whiskey. 

Paul Clarke 

Fantastic. Sean. Jillian, thank you so much for taking the time to chat about all of this with us and for sharing this with the podcast and for the magazine. And I’m looking forward to seeing both of you hopefully very soon. 

Jillian Vose

Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us, Paul.

Sean Muldoon

Thank you, Paul. 

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Paul Clarke

Head online to HazelandApple.com to follow developments with the opening of Hazel and Apple in Charleston, South Carolina. And if you happen to be at Charleston Wine and Food this Thursday, March 6th, then I hope you can join our Irish whiskey session featuring Jillian Vose, myself, and Hazel and Apple bar manager Ronan Collins. You can find info on that session at CharlestonWineandFood.com. Thanks once again to this episode’s sponsor, Teeling Irish Whiskey. 

And that’s it for this episode. Be sure to subscribe to Radio Imbibe on your favorite podcast app to keep up with all our future episodes. We’ve got plenty of articles and recipes for you online at our website, Imbibemagazine.com. Keep up with us day to day on Instagram, Pinterest, Threads, and Facebook. And if you’re not already a subscriber to the print and or digital issues of Imbibe, then here’s your opportunity to come on board. Just follow the link of this episode’s notes and we’ll be happy to help you out. I’m Paul Clarke. This is Radio Imbibe. Catch you next time. 

Threads: Irish whiskey experts Sean Muldoon and Jillian Vose discuss the evolution of the category and the best ways to drink it.

FB: For this episode, we talk all things Irish whiskey with Sean Muldoon and Jillian Vose, co-owners of the upcoming Hazel & Apple in Charleston, South Carolina, and veterans of The Dead Rabbit in New York City.